Base Shape

The place to for general Subbuteo threads.
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ogi71
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Base Shape

Postby ogi71 » 22 Feb 2017, 10:11

does anyone know if the hw base shape (flatter-wider vs more rounded) corresponds to any particular production year range?

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Re: Base Shape

Postby lionofludesch » 28 Feb 2017, 11:54

No, but they wouldn't be producing two shapes just for the fun of it. They'd've used one mould until it wore out then machined another.

Year of manufacture of the base is not necessarily the year in which it was made up into a team and sold, either. There'd be an overlap.
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ogi71
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Re: Base Shape

Postby ogi71 » 28 Feb 2017, 20:41

maybe...

however, i met a collector a few weeks ago who only collect hws with the rounder bases, I wondered if this would not make collecting certain teams impossible if they were only ever produced with the flatter bases (in use in that period, whenever that was).

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spudski
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Re: Base Shape

Postby spudski » 28 Feb 2017, 22:43

There was definitely more than two shapes. And the type of plastic changed as well. Wider bases, flatter bases, warped bases, more rounded bases, a very soft plastic, and a very hard plastic, almost feels ceramic in it's feel. Usually on white bases for some reason. They are slightly narrower in diameter too. Seem to find those in the mid 70's, on Leeds, Arsenal and Man Utd a lot. Some of the early bases, were wider as well...especially on moulded figures. As the years went by, from the 60's through to the early 80's, there must have been a whole stockpile of bases moved about, that just got mixed up over time...same for inners as well. Not just in this country but abroad as well.

We can't compare production molds and standards from today to yesteryear.

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Re: Base Shape

Postby albertocollection » 01 Mar 2017, 07:49

The OHW bases and the early HW range had bases totally different from the middle of 70ies that were totally different from the bases of the end of the 70ies.
There were used many kind of bases but it is possible torecognize them during the time.

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Re: Base Shape

Postby ogi71 » 01 Mar 2017, 12:34

I'm only talking about the classic HWs.

I agree with Ian that there were more than two shapes of base, and there are of course millions of perfectly original teams with non-matching disk lettering (I must have seen at least 5 different types of disk lettering). So are we saying that Subbuteo had different moulds in use at the same time for disks and bases? Or was it that the early teams had the same bases and disks (which ones?) then as we go through the 70s and Subbuteo produced new moulds everything started to get mixed up.

What Alberto says seems to contradict this, but this theory of specific base types in use during specific times presumes that there was also some sort of quality control at the factory when in reality I think there was none, and teams were just put together with whatever was lying around the factory. As we all know this produced some weird and wonderful base combinations especially at the end.

I have one of the 6 tray shop displays which you would assume would contain figures painted and put together at more or less the same time, however on close inspection there are a mix of many different bases and disks which backs up the theory of loads of different disks and bases in use at the same time.

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Re: Base Shape

Postby albertocollection » 01 Mar 2017, 14:01

Or was it that the early teams had the same bases and disks then as we go through the 70s and Subbuteo produced new moulds everything started to get mixed up
Exactly.
Speaking of HW only, the first bases were the same as the OHW production. The lower base was "low" and the inner disks had the big capital lettering with a couple of small "circle". Subbuteo projected to place the black and red paper numbers on it .
Later, the inners lost the two "circles" and the base just increased a little bit in tall (but just a little bit).
At the beginning of 70ies Subbuteo changed the inner disks that become smaller with SMALL capital letters but the two "circle" came back again.
Later on, the circles disapperared , but lettering didn't change.
You can find the write Subbuteo showed in the same direction or showed reversed (I had neved found an age for these kind of changes).
From the beginning of seventies to the half of seventies the were several lower bases . Some had a very good concavity (very often these kind of base become warped), other had a sort of flat disk under the base, others had a tipical shape of bucket.
When the production went over the ref 191 the inner disks changed againg returning to the big capital lettering (BUT it is different from the early inners) very often the bases did not match with the lower bases leaving "air" from the inners and the bases.
In the last HW period it is possible to find both small and big capital letters, but it is easy to recognize a "late" base because there is a whiteish glue and the disks are often matt (and not "dull").

All this history it is not totally "on target", it is not a Bibble, bacause Subbuteo changed several times but it is outline to find one's way.
It is only an imperfect summary of SSG production. But it is very useful when you want to buy some teams compared with others.
I hope it is enough clear (and please forgive me the english errors).

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Re: Base Shape

Postby albertocollection » 01 Mar 2017, 14:18

01 early base.jpg
01 early base.jpg (29.19 KiB) Viewed 975 times
Early base with disks on inners and big letters
002 early base.jpg
002 early base.jpg (32.45 KiB) Viewed 975 times
Early base, no disks but still big letters
003 small capital circle.jpg
003 small capital circle.jpg (33.5 KiB) Viewed 975 times
Beginning of Seveties with circles on inners and small letters
005 early base.jpg
005 early base.jpg (29.6 KiB) Viewed 975 times
005 same subbuteo.jpg
005 same subbuteo.jpg (81.9 KiB) Viewed 975 times
tipycal 70ies bases with small letters showed in the same direction and reversed

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albertocollection
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Re: Base Shape

Postby albertocollection » 01 Mar 2017, 14:19

007 late capital.jpg
007 late capital.jpg (21.47 KiB) Viewed 975 times
late capital big letters
006 late matt base.jpg
006 late matt base.jpg (86.11 KiB) Viewed 975 times
"matt" disks

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spudski
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Re: Base Shape

Postby spudski » 01 Mar 2017, 14:34

That is a very good and accurate summary by Alberto...and I'd agree with it.

Like you also noted Ogi...everything did get mixed up over a period of time. In the small splash box's and Window box's...you still get bases and inners from the early to mid 70's...but Alberto's summary is very good as to when bases and inners were introduced. And it is a good way to judge teams. For example...you aren't going to get the 'matt type inners, and awful glue that appeared in the mid to late 70's, on early teams from the late 60's and 70's. You can work back...but not forward...if that makes sense.

The one thing that I may ask about...is the inner circles on the discs, that Alberto mentions were for putting the paper numbers on. I've always assumed these raised circles were from manufacturing where the plastic extrusion went into the molds? I've never heard of Alberto's theory before.

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Re: Base Shape

Postby ogi71 » 01 Mar 2017, 18:25

Alberto's summary is very interesting, it must have been incredibly difficult to arrive at this 'dating', I guess some of it is possible by looking at the box type, as we know more or less when these were produced. I always wondered if the lettering changes on the disks was intentional and had some internal significance.

However like Ian I'm not so sure about the inner circles theory, if you look at most modern disks these circles are hidden on the underside, I'm pretty sure they are part of the production process.

Assuming this dating is correct this would then mean that certain teams, that were only ever produced for a short time, only appeared with certain base types/shapes.

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Re: Base Shape

Postby Focus On » 02 Mar 2017, 07:51

I am sure there was an overlap with everything as they were not planning on scrutinisation 45 years after the event...

i see genuine late ref teams still on warped bases, SW have a few even now for sale at silicone implant prices :O

I collect Scalextric slot cars and all the time i see overlap time period boxes being allocated to old stock cars that shouldnt be in those box types but do appear, in fact one car appears in four different box types spanning 1970 to 1974 and the car was only in production a year....old stock getting used up is my theory... a pound note is still a pound note, commercially...
also i have seen label stickers three years out of date appear willy nilly where ever they felt like using them up...no rules folks, business is business

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Re: Base Shape

Postby Focus On » 02 Mar 2017, 08:12

having said that if a flat team ever appears on ebay in a lw box even i would raise an eyebrow lol...but it IS possible
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Re: Base Shape

Postby spudski » 02 Mar 2017, 09:05

It's also worth noting...that not all early inners, with the large lettering came with inner circles in the disc.

Pictured a ref 50 from 1978 short splash...and a ref 41 from late 60's.

Both have warped bases as well.
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ogi71
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Re: Base Shape

Postby ogi71 » 02 Mar 2017, 11:42

So looking at these last photos (aside from the box type) are we saying that there is no way to tell if they were produced in the late 60s or late 70s?

I'd agree on the timeline and rules thingy. I find collectors are increasingly judging teams on rules which are probably flawed, and assume quality control in the factory (or rather in the housewives kitchen :lol!: ). Although it is understandable given the number of repaints around it probably means many genuine teams are getting labelled as suspicious with because they don't conform to the timelines/rules.


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