Base Shape

The place to for general Subbuteo threads.
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Focus On
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Re: Base Shape

Postby Focus On » 02 Mar 2017, 16:25

My rule is if it looks right and feels right, it probably is...i don't even bother about reffed boxes anymore to lend credance to a side.
I and a few others that paint know how hard it is to get a team looking old when it isn't, its not rocket science but i do reckon knowing its new is half the psychological prob, i wonder if i didn't know it would pass me as ok??...something i'll never know.
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albertocollection
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Re: Base Shape

Postby albertocollection » 02 Mar 2017, 16:34

I totally disagree with "Focus on" speech (sorry Mark...).
I focused mainly on the inner disks , because they are the most easiest way to understand the "time" of a team.
The lower bases have a wider range of shape and, as Mark has written, more overlapping than the inners.
i see genuine late ref teams still on warped bases
Totally agree, bases warped are a characteristic base during the severies, all the years, and I have never written different things.
But I am sure that everybody can recognize a base coming out after the '75.
See this photo
192 hw 2 pp.jpg
192 hw 2 pp.jpg (36.42 KiB) Viewed 724 times
(a tribute for Mr Ranieri...)
For me it is very clear it comes from the end of the seventies, doesn't it ?

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Re: Base Shape

Postby spudski » 02 Mar 2017, 18:59

Agreed Alberto...the picture you have shown would only be from the late 70's early 80's. You wouldn't find that from any other era.

However...you can find teams from the same period with bases and inners, that were introduced earlier.

This is because stock got mixed up. The outworker was looking at colours...not lettering or type of base.

Then you have all the stock that got shipped out to Italy, France, Spain and Portugal. Plus they also manufactured their own. It all got mixed up.

Bases and inners when introduced, give a good indication of teams age...like I said before...you can't work back, only forward.

I also agree with what Mark says...kids collected Subbuteo. They played with them, scribbled on the box's and threw them back into any old box.

Box's often don't match teams...because kids didn't care what box they were in. It's only us collectors, 40 years later, that scrutinise everything.

If I picked up a team like the ref 192 you showed, and it was in an early 70's box...I wouldn't dismiss it. The team is 100% genuine...it's just been put in the wrong box...by whoever. A team is genuine...if it's genuine. Teams got mixed up by kids and adults alike.

Over time, you can tell...it's from years of collecting and experience.

Don't dismiss teams just because they are in the wrong box that doesn't fit the year.

Hope that makes sense :-)

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Re: Base Shape

Postby Focus On » 02 Mar 2017, 19:00

What part do you disagree with Alberto?
I am not questioning your opinion but i am a bit confused mate
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Re: Base Shape

Postby albertocollection » 02 Mar 2017, 21:23

I have never spoken about box!
I collect teams. No ref or box.
I think, Spud, that you took the late team ref 192 you found and you moved them into a fantastic reffed small box with the small window, didn't you
I would have done it, because I knew what kind of team it was.

I totally agree with you. When the time passed you could find several stock in the toy shop, and children swapped the box! I did it !
But that days are passed and I try to do my best to recreate the "true" of Subbuteo. Maybe I am crazy enough to do it.
Obiously if a team may have a difficult collocation I don't care to place it in a old box (small player kicking on box), or in a newer box (big player kicking on lid), but I would never place the team in a small box that I reserve for the team after ref 190

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Re: Base Shape

Postby ogi71 » 02 Mar 2017, 22:07

I think children swapping the boxes is only half the problem, thousands of teams came out of the factory in boxes or with disks or bases that shouldn't be possible according to timelines/rules etc. While of course it's great to find a team that is "perfect" and corresponds to all the rules, I think in reality "true" Subbuteo is often a very random affair, wrong hair colours, incorrect boxes, badly mixed paint, disks with lettering that doesn't match etc.

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Re: Base Shape

Postby Gullseye » 02 Mar 2017, 23:13

I think children swapping the boxes is only half the problem, thousands of teams came out of the factory in boxes or with disks or bases that shouldn't be possible according to timelines/rules etc. While of course it's great to find a team that is "perfect" and corresponds to all the rules, I think in reality "true" Subbuteo is often a very random affair, wrong hair colours, incorrect boxes, badly mixed paint, disks with lettering that doesn't match etc.
Who's rules, presumably you are talking about the rules that collectors have made. Trying to make sense of it all is difficult and to complicate matters further you have all the repaints which have flooded the market. I think the most difficult ones to spot are the teams that are only part repainted and have been turned from common refs into rarer ones.

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Re: Base Shape

Postby lloydie1109 » 03 Mar 2017, 07:50

One of the main causes of, what you could call mixed teams, was when there was a massive plastic shortage in the 1970's. The plastic used was coal based and with many Miners Strikes, SSG had to use old stock to maintain production, hence teams with more than one shaped base or disc in them.

For a period of time they also had to change the glue used, this caused warping of the base and discs at times. So time lines were thrown out of the window during this period. The manager of the factory once said to me it was a nightmare trying to fulfil orders at the time.

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Re: Base Shape

Postby albertocollection » 03 Mar 2017, 08:35

I think the most difficult ones to spot are the teams that are only part repainted and have been turned from common refs into rarer ones.
YES, but good collectors have their own parameter to understand what it is genuine and what it is not.
Box, bases, inners, painting, colour of painting (that sometimes changed during the years), colour of hair/boots, name of seller, ecc

During the years, I didn't buy a lot of teams that, according to my experience, and looking at all those components I listed, didn't match !
That's why I am still looking for about 25 teams missing in my collection.
I don't want to say that I have never bought repainted or touched up or completely false teams. I suppose that every collector have done !
But after a deep inspection I have decided if the team in front of me were genuine or not !

Obiously, I always hope to open a friend loft or a cellar or his sea cottage, and find hundreds of teams when he was a child ! Sometimes happened to me (not hundreds but good amounts) , and this are the best catch a collecton may inspire. A lot of ref 41, 5, 34, 7, 21 (often with pen additions), 57 and 58 here in Italy !

I didn't want to buy this teams because they didn't convince me when sold on ebay... I am still been seething with anger !
SPECIAL Northampton pp2.jpg
SPECIAL Northampton pp2.jpg (17.47 KiB) Viewed 686 times
special hamilton pp2.jpeg
special hamilton pp2.jpeg (14.77 KiB) Viewed 686 times
On the contrary I bought this team from a very respectable collector, and when the team arrived it was easy to recognize it was faked (and I recognize it from the bases !)
195 hw 1 pp.jpg
195 hw 1 pp.jpg (16.94 KiB) Viewed 686 times

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Re: Base Shape

Postby dawn.42 » 03 Mar 2017, 09:26

Hamilton Special is not original ?

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Re: Base Shape

Postby Focus On » 03 Mar 2017, 17:42

Dumbarton wasnt from me but the 'Hamilton' was, AND sold as a repainted team just made up/invented kit, not sure where 'Hamilton Special' comes from looks nothing like Hamilton, and wasn't advertised as being either (!!??) in fact at the time i said it was kind of a River Plate style kit but wasn't, and also was repainted and i think it sold for about £15!!
The Northampton was from me via Trev at Leicester and i'd be happy to buy it back as its perfect
Christ you've been seething for 4-6 years Alberto?..you'll be getting ulcers
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Re: Base Shape

Postby albertocollection » 03 Mar 2017, 17:50

Maybe I have explained badly.
None of you in the forum were involved.
They weren't your teams Focus.
The two "Hamilton " were genuine for me, the Dumbarton unfortunately, it wasn't !
But this is just to let you know that, when you have the team in front of you , you may understand a lot of things from details.

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Re: Base Shape

Postby Focus On » 03 Mar 2017, 18:39

Ok ,they were and someone bought them then re-sold them obv, but were def my teams at one point, not the Dumbarton though

Sorry for confusion and if you were mislead by a different seller Alberto

The team Hamilton is not original as i painted it on some bad stripped blanks, i also painted a weird green kit team around the same -ish time again just 'invented' which i still have (i think)
ah, actually thats not true it was the reverse Hibs from a catalogue picture, remember now.
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Re: Base Shape

Postby lionofludesch » 05 Mar 2017, 10:46

So looking at these last photos (aside from the box type) are we saying that there is no way to tell if they were produced in the late 60s or late 70s?
Obviously, one thing no-one has any control over is what the purchaser does after the team is bought.

If the box for his favourite 1970 vintage team is bu99ered, nothing to stop him using a later. newer box.
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Re: Base Shape

Postby bengi » 12 Mar 2017, 06:53

Back to warped bases. I have some teams from my childhood that I recall not being warped and to my surprise, when I re-discovered Subbuteo four years ago, they are warped. Two possibilities:
1) as children we did not care and did not notice warped bases,
2) bases warped in the course of years in the basement.
Can be both?
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