A very old rule.

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BlackpoolRock
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A very old rule.

Post by BlackpoolRock » 23 Jul 2018, 13:59

Can any historians or guardians of the rules assist with this one, from the very early days of the game.

As I'm enjoying playing with the flats, I'm considering playing a 'season' to the original rules of the game, from the 1950 Advanced Table Soccer booklet, which is the earliest I have.

Under the heading "Position of defence whilst opposing attacking line is in motion", it states, "When the ball is in the defending side's half, and is in the possession of the attacking side, two defending figures may be flicked into any position required . . . . "

Obviously this was an early introduction, possibly the first, of blocking flicks, but my question is when, and how often, they can be taken? As soon as the ball stops in their half? Can they wait and ask for them when they think they are most needed? or may they have two flicks after every play of the ball by the attack? I would think most would suggest the first of those options.

I know that many of these early rules were open to gentlemanly interpretation, but I just wonder whether anyone remembers playing such an early form of the game, possibly with a grandparent.

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krama
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Re: A very old rule.

Post by krama » 26 Jul 2018, 12:03

I don't know the definitive answer to your question sadly, but I agree with you...just the two flicks as soon as the ball enters the defender half and that's it...until the ball goes back into attackers half and back in again.
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BlackpoolRock
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Re: A very old rule.

Post by BlackpoolRock » 26 Jul 2018, 15:38

Thank you. That seemed to be the most likely interpretation of the early rule, pre the quotas of three defensive flicks.

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Re: A very old rule.

Post by donsaverio » 28 Sep 2018, 13:01

Precisely so.
As the ball got in the defensive half two miniatrures could be moved, by flycking them, to defend (no more than two).
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Re: A very old rule.

Post by BlackpoolRock » 28 Sep 2018, 16:27

Thank you.

I've experimented playing that way in a few practice games, and it seems to work quite well in solo play; in many ways preferable to successively alternating the 'kicking' flicks with blocking flicks.

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Re: A very old rule.

Post by Gullseye » 29 Sep 2018, 18:57

BlackpoolRock wrote:
28 Sep 2018, 16:27
Thank you.

I've experimented playing that way in a few practice games, and it seems to work quite well in solo play; in many ways preferable to successively alternating the 'kicking' flicks with blocking flicks.
Yes only two flicks when entering the opponents half. Good for solo play as you say, blocking flicks I feel are not really practical in solo play.

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Re: A very old rule.

Post by BlackpoolRock » 30 Sep 2018, 09:00

I know there are differing opinions regarding blocking flicks in solo play, as I have read the forum topic from several years ago. My view is that the defenders should have a chance to influence the game, and I don't like to feel that I am playing against statues. Perhaps I like to think that if an attacking move breaks down, it might be at least partly due to good defensive play, rather than purely my fault!

A few years ago I played a trial match without blocking flicks, wich was abandoned after ten minutes with the score already 3-3. This was before I started playing with flats, and I always play with keepers off wire or rod.

The reason for posting the original question is that I am planning what can best be described as a 'retro development' for next season, for which planning is underway. I would like to get the earliest rules as accurate as possible, and am grateful to those who have assisted my 'research'.

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Re: A very old rule.

Post by Brunshawroad66 » 30 Sep 2018, 19:21

Good luck with that ... however the rules evolved for a very good reason ;)

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Re: A very old rule.

Post by BlackpoolRock » 01 Oct 2018, 20:06

A very fair point, but if taken to its logical conclusion, we'd all be happily playing the game to the 2018/19 universally accepted rules.

Although it wasn't planned, since my return to the game, which began with several modern 'slidey' teams playing on an astro pitch, to the seventies rules of blocking flicks after every kick. Gradually, I've not only become more familiar with what is available, but I've found myself going more retro in my approach to the game, with the teams, pitches and rules, whilst discovering more about its history and heritage.

It seems logical to me to try playing some matches, not from my earliest introduction to Subbuteo, in the mid sixties, but from even before that. I'm actually looking forward to experience playing without relying on Organising to replace a defender who has ventured upfield, taking defensive flicks in full quotas at once, no 'onside flicks' and the original offside rule, possession automatically going to the attacking side after a keeper's clearance, the possibility of injuries and sendings off, and even the deflected goals from long passes, (or should that be 'hopeful hoofs'?) out of the defensive half.

I intend putting 'safeguards' in place to stop a team simply passing the ball around for long periods of possession football (not that I'm good enough to do that anyway) and providing a home/away differential.

Results from several, trial matches have been encouraging, although the pause in play every time the ball crosses the halfway line will take some getting used to.

It may be that I don't find it so interesting after all, but if I don't try, I'll never know.

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Re: A very old rule.

Post by Brunshawroad66 » 02 Oct 2018, 12:45

My preference is for the Italian OS rules as they offer the inexperienced/returning player more opportunity for enjoyment especially with regard to basic attacking play whilst addressing 99% of the grey areas that continue to arise from other rule sets ...as regards solo play of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that and everyone can do as they please but I can't for the life of me understand how anyone can keep goal with a keeper off the rod ? do you blue tack it in place ? how does a keeper not being held by a human hand withstand the power of a shot ? as the keeper cannot move how do you fail to score with every shot ? do you subconsciously decide which shots are going to hit the net ? ... I suspect the latter for all you chaps who "place" static goalies :wink:

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Re: A very old rule.

Post by BlackpoolRock » 04 Oct 2018, 10:40

Your first couple of questions are easy for me to answer. I play to the very old rule that keeper may advance to clear the ball anytime it is inside the penalty area, even if the ball is in possession of the attacking side. Perhaps I misread, or misinterpreted, that rule when I first saw it in a later version of the Advanced Rules, but I find it works well, and makes it more difficult to score via an easy chance in front of goal, as just outside the area, approximately in front of each post, will be at least two centre backs, 'organised' to be in the best place to mark the forwards and/or intercept the ball. If a pass goes even a short way beyond them, i.e. into the penalty area, keeper will advance and claim the ball.

The angled shots aren't that easy, either. The experts may be able to score eight or nine times out of ten, from the corner of the penalty area, with keeper placed in the approximate corner or his box, but I certainly can't. If the shot involves a 'slice' or 'cut' contact with the ball, the angles and odds are even more in favour of the keeper, as the chip shot is not an option. If the forward then tries to tap the ball even a short distance towards goal, keeper can again advance and clear.

For whatever reason, I find that opportunities for powerful 'blast' shots, with a wide target to aim at, are few and far between. I also find that such shots from an angle can quite often catch the keeper, or another defender, and deflect just enough to miss the goal. they may knock the defender off his feet, but his job has been done.

I am not aware of deciding in advance, which shots are going in and which aren't, and neither is there any any intention to arrange, or let's be honest, fix, any matches. If I had ideas of doing so, several teams would not be in the divisions they are now, and I may just as well roll dice to decide the scores, and keep rolling them until I obtained the result(s) I wanted. I have off-days like everyone else, but mistakes are genuine.

What I really can't understand, though, is why you imply that any subconscious decisions regarding shots only seems to apply when someone is trying to perform just one task, such as shooting, and never when trying to perform two, shooting and saving, simultaneously?

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Re: A very old rule.

Post by Brunshawroad66 » 04 Oct 2018, 11:51

Yes solo play without subconscious is difficult but if you have one hand on the keeper controlling the rod as intended and the other hand taking the shot the element of chance comes into play reliant upon your own speed of thought and reaction time ?

So your freestanding keeper is positioned motionless in the penalty area , your two centre halves are "organised" (forgive me I don't really understand what that means other than you place them where you see fit ? ) - what happens if you've used your two defensive flicks alluded to above ... the attacker gently sidesteps the lot of them and rolls a tame shot into an empty net from just outside the box while the poor goalie stares helplessly into the afternoon sky ?

No criticism intended by the way .. you do as you see fit I'm just curious ? I just don't see how you avoid scoring golas every time you attack unless you subconsciously decide not to

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Re: A very old rule.

Post by Brunshawroad66 » 04 Oct 2018, 12:22

Goals rather than golas

I shall ask my Burnley club mate and fellow ISF user this evening to see if he understands your methodology ,it just sounds unduly complicated to me

Another question if you are playing to early early rules do you have the pitch without the shooting line ? and if you have added one is it an arc ?

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Re: A very old rule.

Post by BlackpoolRock » 04 Oct 2018, 16:32

Point taken regarding the chance element of holding keeper with one hand and shooting with the other.

I'm a little surprised that a rules historian such as yourself isn't familiar with the 'Organising' rule. It certainly appeared in the sixties sets of Advanced Rules, which I'm still playing to at present. Three players can be moved and placed anywhere inside your own shooting area, when you're in possession, outside this area. Pendle Falcon uses this; I've seen his videos and read his rules.

You are quite correct in that if the attack is able to exhaust the opposition's quota of defensive flicks, without passing back which reinstates them, then they, in theory, can continue to play towards goal, but the keeper still has the right to play the ball, if he wishes, once it stops inside the penalty area. That situation occurs less often than I would have imagined, and one of the 'safeguards' I intend putting in is a full quota of defensive flicks restored should the attack pass back.

I haven't invested in an early playing pitch, although I considered doing so when SubbuteoWorld had one. I also thought about a Newfooty pitch for the same reason, but decided the presence of the shooting line would make decisions easier.

Returning to organising, or lack of, in future. I am looking forward to find out how successful teams will be at holing position in defence without it.
I suspect the 'better' teams will attempt to keep their players in position after kicking the ball, rather like a snooker player controlling the white, whereas the lower sides might be inclined to have a more direct approach which, should they not score, will at least give them a goal kick to sort themselves out.

I don't think my current rules are at all complicated. They are simply the Sixties Advanced Rules, but with the keeper off wire, and allowed to intercept the ball, should he wish to, when it stops in the penalty area.

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Re: A very old rule.

Post by Brunshawroad66 » 04 Oct 2018, 19:02

Historian yes but more social and economic to be fair ...much less so rules :lol:

Now then here are my thoughts and questions ..

Placing figures by hand - never done it/advocated it or seen it done other than at goal kicks/start of each half so I can't comment on whether Pendle Falcon does it or not

Goalie question - how do you position the keeper do you place him or flick him and either way does that count as one organising move or one defensive flick ? again either way when do you place him ? if the attacking side shoots from outside the penalty area as 90% of half decent players do then how do you stop a shot ?

As I see it you must save your limited defensive flicks until the attacker has the ball in the shooting area then as long as the attacker has the ability not to go backwards and can shoot into an empty net the attacking side will still always score simply by taking a couple of light touches to waste your defensive quota or simply by playing off /through your blocking figure .. as the keeper cannot move to the shot the chances of running up a cricket score are very high ...and as he doesn't have a rod he is easily knocked over or displaced by a good shot anyway

I must be a bit thick mate because I find it all very confusing ...but as I say as long as you enjoy it thats the main thing crack on and keep flicking

Now I must get back to 19th century Russia :wink:

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