Speed of play

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barrychuckle
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Speed of play

Post by barrychuckle » 20 Oct 2014, 09:39

Just wondering what would be the normal/correct speed of play? Having only played at our Tuesday night meets just interested at the speed people play at. Not solo but against a real person. I much prefer a quick game as in real football no waiting for your opponent if you are in possession. I do struggle playing against a slower player i.e. someone who waits and has a look round for their next pass or shot. I do like blocking flicks and as I'm getting better at them this of course will slow your opponent down but in my opinion if your blocked just curl your player around the blocker and nestle on the ball. What's there to think about.

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spudski
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Re: Speed of play

Post by spudski » 20 Oct 2014, 13:53

I've never thought of it...but is there a time limit between flicks?

When I used to go and play in Italy, a lot of the Italians would play fast.
It used to infuriate them when I slowed things down...especially if I was winning.
I suppose it's tactics and finding your opponents weaknesses.
A bit like knocking it around the back four and wasting time.

barrychuckle
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Re: Speed of play

Post by barrychuckle » 20 Oct 2014, 15:13

spudski wrote:I've never thought of it...but is there a time limit between flicks?

I suppose it's tactics and finding your opponents weaknesses.
So that's why on a Tuesday Clive has a cup of tea between flicks.

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George Best jr.
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Re: Speed of play

Post by George Best jr. » 20 Oct 2014, 17:32

Very good question, Mr. Chuckle. I can understand very well what you describe.

Of course slowing down the game can be a very successfull tactical weapon. And so far as I know there is no rule about it or a time limit (but we can discuss if we should add to the rules - maybe it makes sense).

BUT to play in the right fair spirit is one and maybe the most important aim of Classic Subbuteo.

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Number9
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Re: Speed of play

Post by Number9 » 20 Oct 2014, 18:06

barrychuckle wrote:Just wondering what would be the normal/correct speed of play? Having only played at our Tuesday night meets just interested at the speed people play at. Not solo but against a real person. I much prefer a quick game as in real football no waiting for your opponent if you are in possession. I do struggle playing against a slower player i.e. someone who waits and has a look round for their next pass or shot. I do like blocking flicks and as I'm getting better at them this of course will slow your opponent down but in my opinion if your blocked just curl your player around the blocker and nestle on the ball. What's there to think about.
I play slowly and actually enjoy a turn based approach - Interesting about 'not waiting for your opponent if you are in possession' - BUT the rules dictate you must wait for your opponent if you aren't in possession - hardly seems fair does it? - and that's not much like real football either TBH :wink:
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barrychuckle
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Re: Speed of play

Post by barrychuckle » 20 Oct 2014, 18:33

Number9 you recently posted a video of you playing solo. Is that your normal speed in a game against an opponent. If so due to the slowness do you then increase the time of the match. On our Tuesday nights we are currently playing 7 minutes a half at a reasonable pace. If you are in possession it must be your choice to dictate the pace. What is the length of games at tournaments and in general what pace are they played at?

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spudski
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Re: Speed of play

Post by spudski » 20 Oct 2014, 18:49

10 mins each way. Everyone plays at different speeds. Some very slow eyeing up every angle...others ultra fast. One Italian lad actually runs around the table and sweats profusely. He has a towel at hand always.
I've found that the speed played often reflects on a persons personality. A bit like Golf swings.

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Number9
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Re: Speed of play

Post by Number9 » 20 Oct 2014, 18:56

That video is a bit slower than me in a competitive game, but not by much TBH, and yes, when I play solo I go 25 minutes a half. That was the original recommended length of a match.

I looked at the 1955 season results for the Ashdown TSL, there was an average of over 6 goals a game, but only just over a goal either way, so 50 minute matches were quite close, but high scoring (whereas 'modern' subbuteo seems to reflect more 'realistic' scorelines).

It's really horses for courses, I play to relax and think about something that's pure 'escapism' so I tend to think a lot about the moves I am making. Also I have rubbish reflexes and when I do play fast I make more mistakes, which is a wind up and is counterproductive to my peace of mind!
http://www.pendlefalcon.com

The Traditional Subbuteo Society

We bring our preparation to the table, and opportunity may present itself, and if you are well prepared, you can seize opportunity and then maybe something good happens, and you call that luck.

Michael Mann

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George Best jr.
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Re: Speed of play

Post by George Best jr. » 20 Oct 2014, 18:59

What do we want? Subbuteo as a realistic and vital replica of real football OR as a tactical game in which players play slower than Unreal United and the game is more chess on grass and you need a playing time of an hour?
As I wrote before in another thread: the unbelievable attraction of Subbuteo is based upon the realistic way of playing, of course incl. direct and fast combinations without waiting for defending flicks.

At my table I have here a booklet from the 50ties, the Advanced rules, in which in big letters is written:
Subbuteo Table Soccer follows the exact rules of real association football as far as possible - when in doubt over anything try and apply the real association rules.
Some older people (maybe younger people, too) tend to forget this ... but of course you can play at home with house rules the way you want.

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Number9
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Re: Speed of play

Post by Number9 » 20 Oct 2014, 19:16

George - the original rules do allow for speed - real speed - in that there is explicit allowance for hitting a moving ball when in the shooting area.

They don't allow a faster player to have an unfair advantage over a more thoughtful (or accurate perhaps?) player over the majority of the pitch. As your question suggests, the game can go one of two ways EITHER speed OR tactics, that is a limitation of replicating football on a table, and the earlier rules appeared to provide a balance between the two. For me faster play is less congenial, more frustrating and actually more boring.

Its great to do the spectacular in attack, but its not right to do it at the expense of midfield or defence - Bobby Moore was never spectacular in defence but was a great player nonetheless, based on precision and accuracy and a strategic eye - why should that be downplayed?

Just the way I play, and how I enjoy the game...
http://www.pendlefalcon.com

The Traditional Subbuteo Society

We bring our preparation to the table, and opportunity may present itself, and if you are well prepared, you can seize opportunity and then maybe something good happens, and you call that luck.

Michael Mann

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George Best jr.
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Re: Speed of play

Post by George Best jr. » 20 Oct 2014, 19:44

Number9 wrote:George - the original rules do allow for speed - real speed - in that there is explicit allowance for hitting a moving ball when in the shooting area.
There are different types of original Advanced rules, and there was an evolution, and not every evolution is bad - especially under the proposition: Real Association football is the model/ideal.

They don't allow a faster player to have an unfair advantage over a more thoughtful (or accurate perhaps?) player over the majority of the pitch.
Sorry, why do you speak of an unfair advantage??!! Of course - as in real football - the team which is able to combine very quick and with excellent offensive skills has advantages - and that´s GOOD! In past, today and in future - no difference. The legendary Hungarian team of the 50ties played quicker and with more excellent combinations as other teams - that what people wanted to see! - and not teams who where so "thoughtful" that they forget to play. Today´s the same - look to the brilliant 7:1 of Germany against Brazil in the semifinal. This should be unfair???

As your question suggests, the game can go one of two ways EITHER speed OR tactics, that is a limitation of replicating football on a table, and the earlier rules appeared to provide a balance between the two. For me faster play is less congenial, more frustrating and actually more boring.
You can play with home rules as you want to play, of course, and you can run tournaments with special rules as you want, also no problems. BUT you tend to say as a Bible-believing Subbuteo-Christ: look to the past, look to some written words of the Advanced rules and take this, just this, cos everything after the first rules is not real Subbuteo!
Not every evolution brings in every point bad results - as in real football, gents!
You speak of a balance intended in the first rules, BUT there is an antagonism in exactly these rules when written:
Subbuteo follows the exact rules of real football association as far as possible!


Its great to do the spectacular in attack, but its not right to do it at the expense of midfield or defence - Bobby Moore was never spectacular in defence but was a great player nonetheless, based on precision and accuracy and a strategic eye - why should that be downplayed?
Quite easy - if you play to slowly, the same today as in the fifties or sixties - and your opponent plays quicker, also in his brain!, maybe excellent as Georgie Best :compress: , then you will loose the match and you can go home. And that´s okay!

Just the way I play, and how I enjoy the game...

If you like chess-on-grass - play it. I prefer playing real chess and real Subbuteo.
:D

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Number9
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Re: Speed of play

Post by Number9 » 20 Oct 2014, 20:23

Oh George, bless you!

I laugh very much when German Logic seems to fly from the window like an overhit football

At the beginning you say 'There are different types of original Advanced rules, and there was an evolution' - the first statement is so silly, original is derived from the term origin, meaning beginning - or do you refer to multiple inventions of Subbuteo in multiple universes? The second statement is true - there was an evolution, and continues to be so. But earlier types and forms persist in evolution, I always laugh when people say single celled organisms are primitive and we evolved from them - but they are still here! - it is correct to say that we and the current single celled organisms evolved from the same root, one changes greatly, one didn't. So all things may persist without necessarily changing greatly from where they began.

At the end you say 'I prefer playing real chess and real Subbuteo.' Now you are invoking 'reality' to only one form of the game, as though all others are unreal or false??

I am Spartacus. NO! I am Spartacus etc etc.

I love this game :lol:
http://www.pendlefalcon.com

The Traditional Subbuteo Society

We bring our preparation to the table, and opportunity may present itself, and if you are well prepared, you can seize opportunity and then maybe something good happens, and you call that luck.

Michael Mann

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George Best jr.
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Re: Speed of play

Post by George Best jr. » 20 Oct 2014, 20:44

Number9 wrote:Oh George, bless you!
Thanks very much. :awe: Bless you, too.

I laugh very much when German Logic seems to fly from the window like an overhit football
Some Germans are able to think quicker as their own shadow!

At the beginning you say 'There are different types of original Advanced rules, and there was an evolution' - the first statement is so silly, original is derived from the term origin, meaning beginning - or do you refer to multiple inventions of Subbuteo in multiple universes? The second statement is true - there was an evolution, and continues to be so. But earlier types and forms persist in evolution, I always laugh when people say single celled organisms are primitive and we evolved from them - but they are still here! - it is correct to say that we and the current single celled organisms evolved from the same root, one changes greatly, one didn't. So all things may persist without necessarily changing greatly from where they began.

What you do is "finickiness" or logomachy - when speaking about different types of advanced rules I just mean the evolution of these rules who were officially presented from time to time as "new" advanced rules. Thats all.

At the end you say 'I prefer playing real chess and real Subbuteo.' Now you are invoking 'reality' to only one form of the game, as though all others are unreal or false??
The same "finickiness" - of course not! I accept as a liberal human being every kind of playing, every house rules and if you prefer playing under the rules of 1953 then I have no problems. All I say is: like in real football there was a Subbuteo rule evolution, and not every evolution is bad. AND Iam sure: most people who like Subbuteo and football - dislike chess on grass.

I am Spartacus. NO! I am Spartacus etc etc.

Aha.

I love this game :lol:
Of course, no doubt. We all love the game - otherwise I would not write these long words and spend my precious time at this forum.
Maybe we should keep this in mind - more.
And play more - as in Italy!!


:guiness:
Last edited by George Best jr. on 20 Oct 2014, 20:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Number9
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Re: Speed of play

Post by Number9 » 20 Oct 2014, 20:52

I play a lot! - I have to, as each game I play lasts 50 minutes :lol:
http://www.pendlefalcon.com

The Traditional Subbuteo Society

We bring our preparation to the table, and opportunity may present itself, and if you are well prepared, you can seize opportunity and then maybe something good happens, and you call that luck.

Michael Mann

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George Best jr.
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Re: Speed of play

Post by George Best jr. » 20 Oct 2014, 20:58

Of course - thinking about every flick needs time, the same as playing chess!
Do you use also a chess clock? If not, maybe a great gift for christmas, as a Subbuteo Christ!!
Personally Iam looking forward to Christmas ... :lol!: :lol!:

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