Pro Table Soccer Association

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Donegal Subbuteo
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Re: Pro Table Soccer Association

Postby Donegal Subbuteo » 19 Jun 2016, 16:12

Why can't those five players just go ahead and play anyway? And anyone within a couple of hours journey go along and play for a day's craic.
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lionofludesch
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Re: Pro Table Soccer Association

Postby lionofludesch » 19 Jun 2016, 18:43

Second event cancelled after five players entered .. so there you go.
Surely, Ralph, the point is that they don't go.
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Re: Pro Table Soccer Association

Postby ralphtheclaret » 19 Jun 2016, 19:14

:lol!:

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spudski
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Re: Pro Table Soccer Association

Postby spudski » 20 Jun 2016, 08:43

Algy it isn't really a question of how seriously a player takes the game he chooses to play ... this is a common mistake FISTF players make when viewing our game.
Well, I've played in both FISTF and OS events, and personally I find the most competitive FISTF events I've been to have a more 'serious' atmosphere than their OS counterparts. I've been to *a lot* of tournaments (200+). Happy to stand corrected though, maybe I've gone to the wrong OS events. I've been to far more FISTF ones than OS for sure, since to my knowledge OS didn't exist 20 years ago, at least in it's current form.

You see, we (Lichfield SC) played inter-club matches here, there, and everywhere. Some clubs did play by advanced rules. The home side effectively dictated the rules the matches would be played by. So when people say they're incompatible, I view that with a great deal of skepticism. With pool, different pubs have different house rules, but it's still pool. I honestly don't see what the issue is with having some events on a circuit as advanced rules and others as FISTF. Certainly my experience of playing Subbuteo has been that rules have been quite malleable.

Finally, WASPA. Well, back in 1997-2005 (on-off) we had the STF rankings in England. These included all events, roughly speaking international events were worth 10x National ones, which were worth 5x local leagues/regional events. The idea was basically the Same as WASPA, get people involved, get them organising leagues, encourage them to join in. I think, still, that it's a good system. But there was opposition to it from the 'top' players because they felt that it favoured weaker, but committed players too much. I disagree, but it does hint at what the problem is. WASPA sort of solves that issue by separating the two, and it does appear to work to some extent. It's better than what was in place, and less controversial than the STF method. I think it's a good thing, and it's a shame that it wasn't available 20+ years ago, cos a lot of our younger players would have lapped that idea up.

Interesting conversation, anyway :)
From my observations of both 'typical' events...I'd agree...FISTF events do seem to have a more serious 'Atmosphere'.

OS events...are all about banter, having fun, meeting friends, often the collecting side of Subbuteo is involved, and more so in Italy, often the family is involved with a good amount of time spent eating, drinking and socialising.

The one thing both 'codes' do have in common, is people who take their games seriously, play to a good standard and are obviously passionate about it.

And it is imo, that 'Seriousness' doesn't reflect the quality of skill being played in many games.

Being 'serious' doesn't mean you can't play a skilled game without a smile on your face and a bit of banter....
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Re: Pro Table Soccer Association

Postby lloydie1109 » 20 Jun 2016, 09:19

From my observations of both 'typical' events...I'd agree...FISTF events do seem to have a more serious 'Atmosphere'.

OS events...are all about banter, having fun, meeting friends, often the collecting side of Subbuteo is involved, and more so in Italy, often the family is involved with a good amount of time spent eating, drinking and socialising.

The one thing both 'codes' do have in common, is people who take their games seriously, play to a good standard and are obviously passionate about it.

And it is imo, that 'Seriousness' doesn't reflect the quality of skill being played in many games.

Being 'serious' doesn't mean you can't play a skilled game without a smile on your face and a bit of banter....[/quote]

Very True Ian totally agree.

Also it comes down to an individual's choice of where and what format of the game they want to play. For that I will never knock anyone.

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Re: Pro Table Soccer Association

Postby ralphtheclaret » 20 Jun 2016, 09:33

I agree Paul I wasn't trying to knock these lads but you kind of wonder what their motivation was/ is ?

We've basically got two codes on the go and that is clearly plenty .. I note that the PTSA lads were implementing one or two new rules in these events which to my mind is a massive mistake .. anyone wishing to play in a variety of events has enough to think about already ?

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Re: Pro Table Soccer Association

Postby spudski » 20 Jun 2016, 09:42

From my observations of both 'typical' events...I'd agree...FISTF events do seem to have a more serious 'Atmosphere'.

OS events...are all about banter, having fun, meeting friends, often the collecting side of Subbuteo is involved, and more so in Italy, often the family is involved with a good amount of time spent eating, drinking and socialising.

The one thing both 'codes' do have in common, is people who take their games seriously, play to a good standard and are obviously passionate about it.

And it is imo, that 'Seriousness' doesn't reflect the quality of skill being played in many games.

Being 'serious' doesn't mean you can't play a skilled game without a smile on your face and a bit of banter....
Very True Ian totally agree.

Also it comes down to an individual's choice of where and what format of the game they want to play. For that I will never knock anyone.[/quote]

Very true Paul...each to their own.

It used to bug me, but now it doesn't.

I like the fact, people still play Subbuteo, with just their friends, often in someone's home, instead of having to go to a 'Tournament'.

Perhaps I'm wrong in thinking this, but Subbuteo in it's new form, has seemingly attached itself to the 'Slidey' game.

It's obvious to see why...because the 'Slidey' game is better promoted.

To me...it feels like a Snooker manufacturer, solely aligning itself with Billiards...if you get my drift :-)

Tbh...I don't know why I commenting, because I haven't been to a tournament in ages.

In saying that though...wouldn't it be better for the new Subbuteo teams being produced, being supplied on 'slidey' type bases?

Any kid coming into the game, if wanting to take it a little further and want to go to a 'Tournament', would be in for a big surprise.
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Re: Pro Table Soccer Association

Postby lloydie1109 » 20 Jun 2016, 10:19

I agree Paul I wasn't trying to knock these lads but you kind of wonder what their motivation was/ is ?



We've basically got two codes on the go and that is clearly plenty .. I note that the PTSA lads were implementing one or two new rules in these events which to my mind is a massive mistake .. anyone wishing to play in a variety of events has enough to think about already ?
The world of playing Subbuteo is fragmented in so many ways, there are Associations with their rules etc, then there are people who play on their own or in Clubs/Leagues, play using various rules. They do so out of enjoyment and the taking part.
My thinking is, 'when in Rome', if I played at your place, it would be your rules etc, OS events here likewise.

Thats just an example of how many different ways the game is played, and we all have our preferences.

I also think, regardless of the rules/equipment used, the game is surviving at whatever levels, and thats the most important thing.

PTSA, is an idea and another option, if it works or fails, so be it, Daniel has tried, and a pat on the back for him for trying. I know how hard it is to organise events, nowadays and in the past when I was running the ESA, its hard, and a very big gamble.

I am sure in the future more OS events will take place, and let us all try and support them, to keep the great game going what ever the code.

I was involved in the setting up and formation of FISTF. The original idea was the best one ever, have one organising body to cover all versions of the game. I have to be careful what I say here as I was involved in legal cases. Once FISTF was set up it went in a different direction and certain people became autocratic, and with alternative motives, changed the game and the whole basic idea of the Organistaion. Which was a shame as one Association where events could be staged using the various rules and catering for all was superb, shame it did not pan out that way.

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Re: Pro Table Soccer Association

Postby lionofludesch » 20 Jun 2016, 12:10

The problem with the PTSA is that they don't seem to be generating significant funding from outside the game. The prize money seems to come from the entry fees. So how long am I going to be paying an inflated entry fee to fund a decent prize for some over-enthusiatic star player with, more likely than not, a poor attitude ? :?

Doomed to failure unless they get some big outside sponsorship. Possible - but improbable.
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Re: Pro Table Soccer Association

Postby spudski » 20 Jun 2016, 12:23

From Liono's post you can now understand why certain codes of the game leave a bad taste in your mouth... funding, prize money, inflated entry fees, 'star' players and 'poor attitudes'... not exactly endearing is it?
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Re: Pro Table Soccer Association

Postby lloydie1109 » 20 Jun 2016, 12:24

True,
its an idea tried but not working. Sponsorship is hard to find, more so when you cannot offer or guarentee media coverage

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Re: Pro Table Soccer Association

Postby ralphtheclaret » 20 Jun 2016, 14:58

Why can't those five players just go ahead and play anyway? And anyone within a couple of hours journey go along and play for a day's craic.
I'd rather play Subbuteo.

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lionofludesch
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Re: Pro Table Soccer Association

Postby lionofludesch » 20 Jun 2016, 20:05

True,
its an idea tried but not working. Sponsorship is hard to find, more so when you cannot offer or guarantee media coverage
It's a bit of a circle. You need money to stage a big tournament to impress sponsors but you don't have the money if you don't have sponsors.

But just making the entrants fund the prize money is never going to work. It's very naïve.
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lionofludesch
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Re: Pro Table Soccer Association

Postby lionofludesch » 20 Jun 2016, 20:09

Why can't those five players just go ahead and play anyway? And anyone within a couple of hours journey go along and play for a day's craic.
With five, you can only play one game at a time. Two players, a referee, two sitting out. If it's a league you play four, ref two, sit around for four. Not a great day's value.

And, of course, the prize fund is pathetically low with only five entry fees in it. By the time you've paid your Income Tax on it, nothing left. :Doh:
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Re: Pro Table Soccer Association

Postby spudski » 20 Jun 2016, 21:15

That's why I gave up playing in tournaments...the prize fund was just pathetic. Not worth getting out of bed for.

Sod the banter, fun and meeting like minded people and having a bit of fun...it's all about the prize fund for me these days. :O :Doh:
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