Back pass to keeper.

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Donegal Subbuteo
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Back pass to keeper.

Postby Donegal Subbuteo » 12 Jun 2016, 11:16

When I recently played in Italy they said they didn't play with a spare keeper. This is how we played in the 80s. I didn't know about the extra use of the keeper until about four years ago! Which got me thinking about a scenario that often crops up in matches. This is when you are facing your own goal and have to pass back to your keeper. This is in games without the spare keeper of course. It can be a tricky situation. You lay your keeper down to minimize the chances of scoring an own goal. But should this be deemed as a keeper touching/picking up a back pass? OR is it OK to hold onto the keeper as you pass it back? Is it OK to be in control of two of your figures at the same time? Interested in your opinions folks.
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Re: Back pass to keeper.

Postby ralphtheclaret » 12 Jun 2016, 11:49

We don't use spare goalies at home either Brendan .... I've no idea what if any official rule applies but we allow the control /holding of the rod whilst flicking your outfield player .. we wouldn't allow laying the keeper down though but that's just us

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Re: Back pass to keeper.

Postby BlackpoolRock » 13 Jun 2016, 08:31

Imho, this situation has arisen because of the design of the modern playing figure and the no passing back to goalkeeper rule, on the real field, which, of course, didn't exist in Peter Adolph's day.

In the situation you describe, if you didn't want to 'boot the ball out', it used to be possible to flick your figure to 'reverse turn', i.e. the figure would spin 180 degrees around the ball before kicking it in the right direction. It would look very neat and skillful when it worked and got you out of difficulty, but you could look rather silly when it didn't!

It appears to me that passing back to your keeper on the rod is a back pass these days, and therefore it would be more logical to pass the ball back, and then allow the kicking keeper to play the ball, probably from his box, with all the possible consequences if it goes wrong.

If the Italians, or anyone else, were playing to the old or traditional rules of Subbuteo, the back pass would be quite acceptable anyway, and I believe it was permitted to flick the outfield player whilst holding your keeper. I don't know what is done in tournaments, though, as, sorry to say, I've never played in one.

In my solo league I never play with a keeper on rod, and if the keeper plays the ball, the side in possession retains it unless he plays it onto one of his own figures. If he doesn't, he must stay where he finishes until the ball goes out of play or beyond the shooting area.

I know this hasn't answered your question, but how you play solo matches, or with friends, should be what suits you best. The old adage was, "when in doubt, try to apply the real football rules," or something like that.

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Re: Back pass to keeper.

Postby Donegal Subbuteo » 13 Jun 2016, 12:33

Thanks for the replies folks. I think that to add to the drama of the back pass, a) the keeper must be standing (in this way he can't handle the ball) b) once placed he can not be controlled as you flick another figure. What do you guys make of this? And how is this played in tournaments?
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Re: Back pass to keeper.

Postby BlackpoolRock » 13 Jun 2016, 13:32

That makes a lot of sense to me, DS, although, as I said, I don't know how it's applied in tournaments.

Give it a try in some of your matches, and keep us informed as to how popular it is and how you think it works. Good luck.

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Re: Back pass to keeper.

Postby Donegal Subbuteo » 13 Jun 2016, 13:57

Will do blackpool.
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Re: Back pass to keeper.

Postby ralphtheclaret » 13 Jun 2016, 16:42

Imho, this situation has arisen because of the design of the modern playing figure and the no passing back to goalkeeper rule, on the real field, which, of course, didn't exist in Peter Adolph's day.

There is some merit in what you say although you should consider that the flicking keeper was first made available @ 1956 :wink: .. if nothing else they are handy for goal kicks rather than using a defender who then has to be plonked back into position which can lead to disputes if you need to put him back in the path of a badly placed goal kick ?

The no passing back rule doesn't apply to Subbuteo as far as I know ?

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Re: Back pass to keeper.

Postby ralphtheclaret » 13 Jun 2016, 16:43

..and if it did you could argue whether or not the keeper has touched it with his hand or base (foot) ? too complicated to worry about in my opinion.

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Re: Back pass to keeper.

Postby BlackpoolRock » 13 Jun 2016, 18:58

Couldn't agree more, Ralph. The taking part, and the enjoyment, are far more important than the minutiae.

If it works and ain't broken, don't bother trying to fix it.

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Re: Back pass to keeper.

Postby lionofludesch » 16 Jun 2016, 14:18

Thanks for the replies folks. I think that to add to the drama of the back pass, a) the keeper must be standing (in this way he can't handle the ball) b) once placed he can not be controlled as you flick another figure. What do you guys make of this? And how is this played in tournaments?
Might add to the drama - but not the realism. We talk about players scoring from their own halves, nine man defences and, well, sneer at them as not being very soccer-like, then suggest that the goalkeeper should stand still whilst the full back coolly rolls the ball past him into the net.

Generally, on the spare keeper, when I started playing 50 years ago, there were already spare keepers on the market and, I seem to remember in the rules, that you could take the keeper off the rod and use him as an outfield player. Made perfect sense with flats, obviously. But not too good with OO scale figures of any era. So I'm surprised that the Italians are playing without spare keepers.

The obvious answer is don't play it towards the goal. Play it to one side of the goal.
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Re: Back pass to keeper.

Postby Donegal Subbuteo » 17 Jun 2016, 11:53

I've never attempted to shoot let alone score from my own half! Five man defence is our max. So if you are allowed to hold the keeper while flicking, why not have your finger ready to instantly flick a second figure as soon as you've flicked the first figure?
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Re: Back pass to keeper.

Postby ralphtheclaret » 17 Jun 2016, 19:50

I think Richard gave the best advice to be honest ... because if you back pass to the letter of the law in a tournament and wish to use your rodded keeper you really ought to make the pass before picking up your keeper to avoid touching the pitch with both hands ? which is clearly a risky business unless you're quick or very confident of the strengh of the backpass :wink: ... also consider that in some rule sets you shouldn't tilt the keeper more than 45 degrees so laying him down isn't an option either ...

In a tournament game you need to use a kicking keeper really for a number of reasons ... it's a massive advantage defensively if used correctly

not sure what the FISTF rule would be mind (no doubt they've got 40 or 50 pages on keepers) ....

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Re: Back pass to keeper.

Postby ralphtheclaret » 18 Jun 2016, 05:52

I've never attempted to shoot let alone score from my own half! Five man defence is our max. So if you are allowed to hold the keeper while flicking, why not have your finger ready to instantly flick a second figure as soon as you've flicked the first figure?
Nothing to stop you doing that Brendan again the point being that if you use both hands in the move ,for example at a corner to hit a moving cross, you mustn't touch the pitch with both hands at the same time and when taking your shot the hand making that flick must be stationary when you flick.

Another scenario would flicking a ball into the shooting area and then flicking again before the ball stops to get a quick shot away - in doing that usually your hand will be stationary as you are flicking from the same position a split second after the first flick

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Re: Back pass to keeper.

Postby lionofludesch » 22 Jun 2016, 06:58

I've never attempted to shoot let alone score from my own half! Five man defence is our max. So if you are allowed to hold the keeper while flicking, why not have your finger ready to instantly flick a second figure as soon as you've flicked the first figure?
Yep, seen that done a lot of times. But, for me, it's not a percentage play.
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Re: Back pass to keeper.

Postby lionofludesch » 22 Jun 2016, 07:00

not sure what the FISTF rule would be mind (no doubt they've got 40 or 50 pages on keepers) ....
One oft-overlooked rule in the FISTF set is that a touch by the keeper on the rod is one of your three .......
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