need some help!!

The place for threads about playing tactics/techniques/rules etc.
algy
Forum Newbie
Posts: 34
Joined: 23 Jun 2015, 22:04

Re: need some help!!

Postby algy » 05 Mar 2018, 12:36

Bit late to the party, but roughly speaking there's two schools of thought as far as playing & rules are concerned:

- FISTF Rules
- OldSubbuteo Rules

FISTF Rules were developed from the competitive tournament rules, for use in competitive tournaments. They're largely agnostic to what playing equipment is used, so you'll find that most players don't play with 'standard' Subbuteo equipment. This is pretty much inkeeping with how tournament play has always been (e.g. in the early-mid 90s practically everyone who played in tournaments modified their Subbuteo figures in some way - adding extra weight to the bases, sanding down the bases to make them flatter, adding a nail behind the goalkeeper to make it stronger etc etc....

OldSubbuteo Rules are, weirdly, probably a bit newer than FISTF Rules. They more far closely resemble the 1970s 'advanced' playing rules (that you'd find within your Subbuteo box set). Whilst you can (I assume) use some non-Subbuteo equipment here, it sticks with either original equipment or reproductions (e.g. Zeugo). Unless you played in tournaments, these will be the ones you remembered as a kid. There are extra rules in there, but they're generally to cover situations that hadn't been adequately covered in the advanced rules.

I'd just go for whichever has the strongest scene locally to you, basically either way you're presumably mostly trying to find other people to play against, so just go for that goal without too much thought as to the rules. Here's a map of (largely) FISTF-affiliated clubs in the UK: http://subbuteoassociation.co.uk/clubs/

ralphtheclaret
Grand Master
Posts: 2860
Joined: 19 Jun 2013, 20:48
Location: Burnley

Re: need some help!!

Postby ralphtheclaret » 05 Mar 2018, 12:58

...not Zeugos mind Algy .. frowned upon old chap ... frowned upon :wink:

algy
Forum Newbie
Posts: 34
Joined: 23 Jun 2015, 22:04

Re: need some help!!

Postby algy » 05 Mar 2018, 19:38

...not Zeugos mind Algy .. frowned upon old chap ... frowned upon :wink:
Ah, showing my ignorance again ;)

User avatar
spudski
Grand Master
Posts: 2540
Joined: 14 May 2011, 17:42

Re: need some help!!

Postby spudski » 06 Mar 2018, 08:10

Zeugo's Frowned upon Ralph? When has that happened fella?

Regarding the OP question...and rules...it's not so much about 'Rues' with Oldsubbuteo. It's more an ethos and about a community of people who want to keep Subbuteo alive.

The majority of people who play it, grew up playing with the original Subbuteo equipment from the 70's and 80's. They remember the time they had playing and collecting as kids, and try to replicate those feelings and memories.

As kids we all had vivid and wild imaginations, and we were all/are football mad. Playing Subbuteo replicated our passion. So we played and collected all the Subbuteo teams and accessories we could, using our imagination to create football games and leagues with friends after school. In our imagination it was football...just as Peter Adolph the inventor had tried to replicate.

Everything the Oldsubbuteo 'Rules' and community try to do, is to try and replicate those 'feelings and memories'....using Subbuteo ( or replicas of ) equipment of which we remember as kids. If you take a look at the 'Rules' shown in a link further up the thread, it shows on page 22 what figures and bases can be used. Pretty much anything pre Hasbro that has a Subbuteo style figure and HW, LW style base. ( Hence my question to Ralph, as Zeugo do these style figures and bases )

Interestingly...the Oldsubbuteo rules state at the very bottom, that the rules can be modified if a tournament is being played and organised and 3 weeks notice given. So in theory, you could play FISTF rules but with Subbuteo figures and bases.

Tournaments are usually based around a Football themed event...ie 1978 World Cup etc and teams painted up to replicate the teams in that Tournament. So you very rarely end up playing with your own teams...they are provided. If you play with friends or a small club, you use your own Subbuteo figures. We've even introduced Corner kickers and throw in figures at games...because it's fun and what we did as kids.

It may sound weird, but having played both styles... FISTF feels more like a flicking game, where as Subbuteo feels more like trying to replicate a football match.

lloydie1109
ISF 2018-19 Subscriber
ISF 2018-19 Subscriber
Posts: 1524
Joined: 02 Jan 2014, 09:27
Location: SHEFFIELD

Re: need some help!!

Postby lloydie1109 » 06 Mar 2018, 08:45

The original concept of FISTF, was superb, a independent world body to promote the playing side of Subbuteo, where people who played TS or Subbuteo could all play together under one body. I was involved in the process for 3 years.

After it was set up, it was divided into 5 'departments' with the head of each of those given Carte Blanche to do as they wish, this was the biggest mistake ever,
One person then went away and developed the FISTF rules, and equipment, his ethos was to create a game where you needed his equipment to play the game, a new game based on Subbuteo, but not in total Subbuteo.

When this happened in 1995 the ESA had a huge Membership, with numerous Clubs and Tournaments Nationwide, within a couple of years of the FISTF revolution the numbers dropped hugely, I know from hearing from those players it was the FISTF rules that made them lose interest, the game was not the one they liked playing.

I have nothing against FISTF or its players, its very much each to their own, I do not like the rules, I much prefer the ETF or Traditional Subbuteo Rules.
the number of folk playing FISTF on a regular basis in the UK is miniscule compared to those playing traditional Subbuteo, yes FISTF have events at high level, but the number of Traditional subbuteo players is so much more.

User avatar
spudski
Grand Master
Posts: 2540
Joined: 14 May 2011, 17:42

Re: need some help!!

Postby spudski » 06 Mar 2018, 09:25

It's sad reading that Paul...the guy who developed the FISTF rules and his new equipment, basically ruined Subbuteo as we know it.

Like you say...more people play Subbuteo than FISTF, however certain FISTF players seem determined to 'force' others to convert to that game, citing that it's better and more 'Professional'. I've seen this so often...newbies coming back to the game, trying to set up a Subbuteo Club locally and it get hijacked by the FistF fraternity.

There's nothing more offensive than an over weight middle aged man, in his garish FISTF sports shirt, waving his cattle brand around (GK) and telling you that Subbuteo is a sport and 'professional' equipment should be used, how many years he's been playing, what ranking he is, and that he once played for England and that their should be 'training' nights every week lol ;-)

Said with tongue firmly in cheek ;-)

However...Seen so many people who were really interested in playing Subbuteo walk away because of it.

Thankfully there seems to be an up turn in people playing Subbuteo again.

lloydie1109
ISF 2018-19 Subscriber
ISF 2018-19 Subscriber
Posts: 1524
Joined: 02 Jan 2014, 09:27
Location: SHEFFIELD

Re: need some help!!

Postby lloydie1109 » 06 Mar 2018, 09:37

Its a sign of desparation when they go after other folks players, a sure sign that they cannot attract Members of their own.

The Zeugo story to me is the saddest one, The Parodi family where for decades the importer/Distributor of Subbuteo for that part of Europe, they kept sales very high from start to finish, putting time, effort and Money into promoting it to a high level and keeping it there. When HASBRO bought out Waddingtons they dropped the Parodi family there and then, as they had their own distribution depot in Milan, but had no one who knew the Subbuteo market.

The Parodi's then developed Zeugo to replace the hole in their business.

User avatar
spudski
Grand Master
Posts: 2540
Joined: 14 May 2011, 17:42

Re: need some help!!

Postby spudski » 06 Mar 2018, 10:48

Its a sign of desparation when they go after other folks players, a sure sign that they cannot attract Members of their own.

The Zeugo story to me is the saddest one, The Parodi family where for decades the importer/Distributor of Subbuteo for that part of Europe, they kept sales very high from start to finish, putting time, effort and Money into promoting it to a high level and keeping it there. When HASBRO bought out Waddingtons they dropped the Parodi family there and then, as they had their own distribution depot in Milan, but had no one who knew the Subbuteo market.

The Parodi's then developed Zeugo to replace the hole in their business.
Indeed that is sad Paul...and one reason why I'm happy to support Zeugo and the Parodi company and avoid Fistf...one doing a lot for the game of Subbuteo, the other the opposite.

lloydie1109
ISF 2018-19 Subscriber
ISF 2018-19 Subscriber
Posts: 1524
Joined: 02 Jan 2014, 09:27
Location: SHEFFIELD

Re: need some help!!

Postby lloydie1109 » 06 Mar 2018, 11:13

I was fortunate enough to have met members of the Parodi family at the International events, and more dedicated folk, you would be hard to find.

User avatar
spudski
Grand Master
Posts: 2540
Joined: 14 May 2011, 17:42

Re: need some help!!

Postby spudski » 06 Mar 2018, 11:25

I was fortunate enough to have met members of the Parodi family at the International events, and more dedicated folk, you would be hard to find.
Such a shame...I've only spoken briefly via social media. Still passionate.

lloydie1109
ISF 2018-19 Subscriber
ISF 2018-19 Subscriber
Posts: 1524
Joined: 02 Jan 2014, 09:27
Location: SHEFFIELD

Re: need some help!!

Postby lloydie1109 » 06 Mar 2018, 13:36

I have many great mates on the FISTF scene, they are not all bad folk, they decide to play that format, its very much Rugby League/Union syndrome, every fan has their preferred code.

The map of clubs on the link provided is very ambiguous in that a host of players play in more than one club, so it looks a bigger scene that it
actually is.

Traditional Subbuteo is thriving in the UK, the amount of teams I shift to folk playing is growing all the time, no doubt it is the same with Mark P at Santiago, plus the amount of original subbuteo sold on line is huge, long may it continue.

ralphtheclaret
Grand Master
Posts: 2860
Joined: 19 Jun 2013, 20:48
Location: Burnley

Re: need some help!!

Postby ralphtheclaret » 10 Mar 2018, 11:42

"Zeugo's Frowned upon Ralph? When has that happened fella?"

No idea , I know they don't like the new bases but one of the Italians told me they were all a no no ... doesn't bother me either way as I think they are horrible in any case - the painting is dreadful.

User avatar
spudski
Grand Master
Posts: 2540
Joined: 14 May 2011, 17:42

Re: need some help!!

Postby spudski » 10 Mar 2018, 15:06

"Zeugo's Frowned upon Ralph? When has that happened fella?"

No idea , I know they don't like the new bases but one of the Italians told me they were all a no no ... doesn't bother me either way as I think they are horrible in any case - the painting is dreadful.
I agree mate...don't like the figure or painting. However the HW style base, not the modern one, is very good. I think they were from 2002.

ralphtheclaret
Grand Master
Posts: 2860
Joined: 19 Jun 2013, 20:48
Location: Burnley

Re: need some help!!

Postby ralphtheclaret » 10 Mar 2018, 15:44

Yes I agree Steve has a Palermo team, I thought they played well enough to be fair ?

lloydie1109
ISF 2018-19 Subscriber
ISF 2018-19 Subscriber
Posts: 1524
Joined: 02 Jan 2014, 09:27
Location: SHEFFIELD

Re: need some help!!

Postby lloydie1109 » 11 Mar 2018, 07:11

The first issue of the Zeugo's were HW style and the best of the ones they have produced, nowadays its the £1 coin style bases, which are not great


Return to “Playing: Rules/Techniques/Tactics Section”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests