The strange ref. 165 colour match...

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falcon66

The strange ref. 165 colour match...

Post by falcon66 »

Hi... anyone knows why subbuteo made the ref. 165 "santos" with that colours ? everybody knows that the Pele' team was -like real madrid- all white !... can you help me please ?
lloydie1109

Post by lloydie1109 »

The reason this happened is as follows, Peter Adolph on one of his ornithology trips to South America, where it is said he had a House, watched some club matches in Rio. One of the matches was involving Santos, there were wearing the green strip, which turned out to be their change strip.

There are many instances where teams have been listed in either their away strip or colours they never wore, both in football and rugby. I recently spoke with the Waddingtons rep for the North East in the 1970's and he said he often got earache from shops etc over teams not being in the colours of the Clubs they represent etc.
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lionofludesch
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Post by lionofludesch »

Barbarians Rugby is a classic. They play in black and white.

And what a nice touch it would have been if they'd all had different coloured socks !

Now there's an idea ..........
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lloydie1109

Post by lloydie1109 »

Ref 24 in rugby until it was changed, also 34, Warrington used it as a change strip in the days of John Bevan, whom I can remember from youth being one of the all time great wingers in either code.

Ref 88 in the football, the bands down the side were not actually part of the strips origin, they were the logo of the Clubs sponsors at the time.
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lionofludesch
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Post by lionofludesch »

Ah - similar story to the 60, then. The red stripe was a sponsor's logo - not a genuine part of the strip.
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lloydie1109

Post by lloydie1109 »

No Ref 60 was the strip. The story behind ref 88, was that SSG were unaware that the coloured stripes were infact the logo of a company in Maastricht that were the main sponsors ofthe club.

In the latter years of SSG being in existance, I was privalaged to be appointed Offical Collector and Historian and asked to start researh into the team reference numbers and all other teams produced that never appeared in the catalogues. I spent time down at Paddock Wood with people who had worked for SSG for years. There were stories and the likes to be logged from these people.

Also there was a container in which was one figure of every hand painted team to have gone through the company in the previous 30 years. Also there was a series of files showing data behind the reference numbers, hence my being lucky enough to know the history of some reference numbers. I started to draft the ultimate catalogue of teams produced.
Sadly having got 75% through collating all the info, HASBRO bought the company and stopped all activity on the project.

At the time I had collated details of over 2400 different strips produced, from flats to lightweights. Some of the stories on how they came to be were great.

I saw things that only ever made it to the prototype stage, like the Gola Soccer Six, for which two coloured teams were produced.
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Warn
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Post by Warn »

Great, you should write a book, it would be fascinating.
lloydie1109

Post by lloydie1109 »

The idea behind collating all the info on the teams was to do such a thing, however, it was never ending, every now and then a new team would appear from another Country and so on. So to actually have a definitive list is impossible, as all the time people make 'finds'.
MahlerOO5

Post by MahlerOO5 »

Lloydie

This is the origin of the logo hypothesis. I have to say I find it compelling, but it would be good to hear more about your theory.

Steve

forum/viewtopic.php?p=46082&highlight=#46082
spudski

Post by spudski »

I thought the ref 60 red stripe across the chest was to represent the Subbuteo name that was printed on the shirt of the Subbuteo employees team?
lloydie1109

Post by lloydie1109 »

When I started the research into drafting the ultimate list of all teams, and accessories, sets etc ever done by Subbuteo, the story behind each item was part of it. Like all Subbuteo enthusiasts, I asked the people concerned, was this true, was that because, and so on.

Reference 60 was one of those, and according who people at Paddock Wood (not me) who had worked on all the teams during the 1970's, reference 60 was the actual strip of FC Subbuteo. However, as I found, and everybody who has an interest in Subbuteo, there is never the definitive answer. In books etc the other version is stated, so everyone has their view, which are genuine views.

The problem with Subbuteo from 1947 to 1995, no complete record was ever kept of what was produced, either here in the UK or abroad, its a shame as it would be some document.
spudski

Post by spudski »

Even with 75% collated i bet there are some smashing historical notes.
Have you still got all the information Lloydie?
Do feel free to share on the forum.
I'm sure also what was collated by yourself would make great reading.You could make yourself a tidy sum if you printed it.
Loads of people would be interested.
Worth thinking about?
lloydie1109

Post by lloydie1109 »

The thing about publishing such data is that although most of it is confirmed or verified, it is the grey areas. I was for example, infact still trying to confirm that some rugby teams were done in France in Club colours. The rumour is that about five were done. In this Country and France, the rumour of such sides has been around for over 25 years. One
former prominant Collector heard that Brive, Perpignan, Racing Club were among the five, but to date there is no proof they were done. Like all things Subbuteo related, maybe one day!

Staying in France, whilst I was doing the research, I delved into ref 188.
Now, Paris FC did infact play in that strip, and the light blue with diagonal band. The one they wore a la 188 had BIC in black on the white chest band. The question is this, was the band part of the strip, or was it put there as BIC was in black, so infact this could be SSG replicating the logo,
or the actual strip. I could not find confirmation either way.

It is grey areas like that, that made the task of collating the definitive
list endless. What reference numbers were actual strips, and which were
strips with bands on to replicate logos etc. Everytime I thought that I had finished a section, up popped another version of a team, accessory, set and so on. Even to this day, I get people contacting me asking to verify items. Some I knew existed but have never seen. For example, ref 508, a
chap bought it, and questioned wether it was real or not, as the one he bought was more of an orange colour, as opposed to the yellow shown in most catalogues. 508 was also done in a more orange shade. SO Questions still arise and more uncatalogued stuff appears all the time.
Which is why we love the game so much, it is never ending.
Jamie Ballard

Post by Jamie Ballard »

lloydie1109 wrote:No Ref 60 was the strip. The story behind ref 88, was that SSG were unaware that the coloured stripes were infact the logo of a company in Maastricht that were the main sponsors ofthe club.

In the latter years of SSG being in existance, I was privalaged to be appointed Offical Collector and Historian and asked to start researh into the team reference numbers and all other teams produced that never appeared in the catalogues. I spent time down at Paddock Wood with people who had worked for SSG for years. There were stories and the likes to be logged from these people.

Also there was a container in which was one figure of every hand painted team to have gone through the company in the previous 30 years. Also there was a series of files showing data behind the reference numbers, hence my being lucky enough to know the history of some reference numbers. I started to draft the ultimate catalogue of teams produced.
Sadly having got 75% through collating all the info, HASBRO bought the company and stopped all activity on the project.

At the time I had collated details of over 2400 different strips produced, from flats to lightweights. Some of the stories on how they came to be were great.

I saw things that only ever made it to the prototype stage, like the Gola Soccer Six, for which two coloured teams were produced.
The dutch teams were introduced in 1972, therfore I assume that they would have been based on the 1971-72 season. At that time MVV played in red shirts with no trim. Sponser's on shirts were only allowed outside the Dutch first division, and thus no Dutch first division team wore a sponcers name on their shirts, until nearly three years later, the first sponser was Nikon for MVV, which was a yellow and black horizontal band. Out of the lesser teams in the 80's range the nearest to the 'real thing' was 83, the shirt though has 3 stripes and was worn with red shorts, almost identical to the 193 but the stripes on the right rather than the left, but though two years later Twente moved the stripes to the left side a la 193.

Regards
Jamie
lloydie1109

Post by lloydie1109 »

Great Info Jamie.

Like everything with SSG, as I mentioned before there are grey areas.
MVV's traditional shirts were plain red. I never say that any theory I come across is the final answer. During the 3 or 4 years I was doing the research intpo the reference numbers and trying to get the info behind the strip, more often than not, there would be more than one theory as to why that strip was done etc. All theories were from people at SSG during the eras the teams were produced. So even SSG could never give the definative answer.

Whilst looking into ref 88, I was told by staff at Paddock Wood, that
there could have been a version done using black, yellow and white stripes, closer to Nikon as you say Jamie. However like everything at SSG what is verified and what is not. I remember going to see FC Twente Enschede a few times during the period 74-77 as my Dad was in the forces based not far there, they wore various strips, all red and the likes, and a change colour of all blue.

The reasons behind numerous reference numbers are wide and varied.
Many times whilst doing the research i was not only frustrated but angered, as just when it was thought, that is the end of that area, boom, up pops something. One thing we will never ever know for certain is the story behind every reference number, which is a shame.
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